Ancient Chinese Philosophy

We step into an argument between three college students with differing views on philosophy. What follows is that discussion in all its glory with the constituent college student fanaticism and naivetÐ"©.

Ð'...so what are your feelings laws and government, are they necessary to maintain order and to make sure people behave.

T: No I simply say that there is no point in being concerned about the affairs of the state, the rituals and the bureaucracy is too much effort. If people truly seek to follow the Tao then they will strive to be calm passive and non-striving, they will act with humility and they will not plan. To require that these people make Laws and create these "rules" is un-necessary if people follow the Tao, it truly goes against the way of the Tao. Government acting in accordance with the Tao will not wage war; it will be simple and not interfere with people's lives. This government will not wallow in luxury and will for the most part be inactive serving merely as a guide to the people as opposed to ruling them as a governor.

L: When a ruler governs a state he does not rely on people to do good out of their own will. If we relied on people to do good on their own will in a township of 10,000 not even 10 men would be doing good. Men are by nature evil and the only way to have them behave is with strict laws with strict punishments. If they see they are able to do what is not good they will however if they wee they are not allowed to do bad then they will by necessity do good. The ruler should not set his attention to virtue but to law. The Laws are like the tools a craftsman uses to build a cart or to make an arrow, without them then only the 1 of 1,000 branches would be good for an arrow. Benevolence and righteousness does not improve rule. But making laws and regulations clear and rewards and punishments certain, is like using the tools to create an arrow shaft, to a state.

To listen to the people is like listening to a group of babies. If a baby gets a cut the mother must clean it, if the baby lice the mother must shave it, however someone must hold down the baby when the mother is doing this small harm because the baby does not understand that they must have the small pain to forgo a large one.

C: I seem to find myself in more agreement with my Taoist friend then you my dear friend. For I feel that in order to govern others the ruler must first govern himself. If the King has developed his own virtues enough then these virtues will spread through the kingdom. For as Confucius said "A man should practice what he preaches, but a man should also preach what he practices." So if a king has built his own virtue and is preaching what he practices his people will be treated well. As Confucius tells the ruler "If you governed your province well and treat your people kindly, you kingdom shall not lose any war. If you govern selfishly to your people, you kingdom will not only lose a war, but your people will break away from your kingdom." So a king must treat his people well and act in accordance to a set or morality if he is going to have a strong kingdom where his people follow him. An oppressive government is a terrible thing it is often more feared by its people then anything else in their lives. The king then should practice Wu-Wei he should act in accordance with the way, He should act as a calm center. The King does more greatness for the kingdom by allowing everything to function as it does without interfering with the individual functions of the government.

T: So you agree with the Tao, the kingdom must follow the way or it shall be lost.

C: Not so simply I believe the king should live and rule in accordance to his practices, but I think there is a place for the king and the government. There are necessities of life that must be accounted for if people are going to be free and live well, without any form of government these things cannot be done. But I have already said that the king should leave things alone and make sure not to have an oppressive government if he wishes to keep his kingdom.

L: But without strong laws how will the king raise the money for these "things" that the government must do? If the King may not rule the kingdom with a tight grip how can he be sure the people will do what is necessary? The Purpose of the Law is to support the state, the King, and the military. By the King Practicing what he preaches and preaching what he practices as you said it is the same way that we handle things. No one is above the law, if the punishments are heavy and are doled out to everyone equally regardless of status then no one is above the law and the king is doing as he says and acts. The state is the underlying reason for all. People must be subservient to the state, all people. Since the laws apply to all we may move forward to doing other work for the state. We must standardize weights and measure so no one gets cheated. We may take power away from the outlying lords so as to give them less reason and ability to go against the state. Individuals may be foolish and evil but the state is the greater good everyone must and should work for.

T: but by taking power away from the outlying governors you are breaking up the structure of the kingdom and putting more into the hands of few. This forces others to do much work and takes them apart from the way. The King is acting against the